Constructing a D&D cartoon.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:08 pm

I don't mean "I feel useless" as a source of drama, I mean "You're fucking useless!" as a source of drama.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:33 pm

Lago that discussion was 8 days ago. Really I've decided there's no point to argue with you... concerning a hypothetical cartoon... for a sytem on its last legs... (currently), that theoretically niether of us woul have any control over anyway.
Though... no matter how you feel about it.. There will be a "robin" or a captian america, or whatever no magic guy you personally hate as a reference, because captain milktoast is an everpresent part of storylines.
Frankly, it has enough traction with enough people that you are never going to be able to get what you want in your lifetime. The people who own the d&d property will assuredly KNOW that and he'll show up as the main. He's almost always the main (except when its a she.) but non the less it there and it'll be there regardless of either of use (See: you) want.
So meh, I've stated what I'd like to see, someone somewhere will agree.
Happy Gaming.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:51 pm

That DMF (Dumb Melee Fighter) is still a dominant trope does not mean, that it is a good trope. I fully agree with Lago, that the DMF is a blackhole of suck, even if he honestly has enough stength to compete with magical guys. Why? Because "being competent at fighting" is not a distinctive schtick for an action character, it is something everyone in the cast has by default. Either in action shows, or in DnD. Due to this, DMF has no real niche, and by definition must reduce the coolness of everyone else, just to justify his presence in the party - either he must be the only smart guy, or he must be clearly the best at actual fighting. Being just as good as everyone else doesn't cut, because if the others can fight just as well, if not purely physically, and also have their various schticks, that can affect the plot, then the others will steal screentime from you and make people wonder what you are even doing in this team.

That's assuming that the author has enough balls to actually give DMF enough power to compete and can invent the ways of making the stuff he does as varied and interesting, as the stuff people with actual superpowers do. And even in anime and manga, this is actually really rare. Yes, DMFs there are superhuman by default, but they rarely are superhuman enough to compete in the worlds with rampant magic and superpowers. Even in One Piece, the current poster child for getting superstrength/speed/endurance by training, your options still boil down to getting one of the few world-league power-granting McGuffins (almost all of the strongest NPCs), having the plot fellate you (PCs crew), or showing your pride where light doesn't shine and keeping a low profile. Otherwise you'll not survive high-CR parts of the world. Very often anime characters that start as DMFs actually get blatant glovy superpowers (albeit through doing enough push-ups), like Son Goku or Ichigo, that allow them to stop beings DMFs, at least to the extent a flying brick superhero is not a DMF. Note that even such upgraded DMFs still tend to be most boring and repetitive combatants in the cast, if anyone is allowed to have other powers than their basic suite.

Well, and expanding on "varied and interesting" part above, making a DMF contribute to overcoming the challenges in a ways that are as interesting as those of his teammates, in a team that is full of magic-users, is actually very, very hard. Differences between various ways of hitting people are difficult to play up, when your comrades can do as much as fly and blast people in flashy, clearly differing ways - that's why Gourry tends to be reduced to little better than a sidekick by the rest of Slayers' cast, even though his GM's pity artifact sword theoretically allows him to stay competitive. And they are just a bunch of evokers, who solve all problems by blasting them repeatedly.

So, however you look at it, DMF is an inherently bad character for an action show that is not totally centered around him. Hopefully, they will go into decline, like vanilla action heroes already did.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:56 pm

Hopefully, they will go into decline, like vanilla action heroes already did.

I'm content to wait and see.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:58 pm

Like all tropes, they can be overdone, become parody, then be used again as nonironic. This is oversimplified, obviously, but it could be cool to see the DMF rise from calumny like a lotus from poo.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:14 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Like all tropes, they can be overdone, become parody, then be used again as nonironic. This is oversimplified, obviously, but it could be cool to see the DMF rise from calumny like a lotus from poo.

It just ridiculous, in so many ways. High level dudes are supposed to be like techno thor or somehing, or become goku/superman through push ups, tapping into whatever powersource magic/psionics whatever, the world has. The problem is normal man becomes a god-like superman is basically the dream of evrey small boy evrywhere. Faster, Stronger, "better"... is the ideal, much like the princess fantasy for women. So basically, if you want to do away with it you're up against mankinds entire existance/history/programing so far, and saying "Nope that shit sucks", when a large part of the problem is since magic is a mainstay, and no one has a cut off point for what magic can do, it does everything.
Whatelse... cause I'm bout done with this in anycase so...
Ah, look, Colossus from the X-men. Suckiest of the Xmen, for a various reason.
But look, there are other people on that same team who are doing the Dmf guy. Wolverine most notably. Yet wolvie is like the visa of superheroes. Everywhere you want to be.
So there's some rule of cool there too, and I'm sure this is a bit odd but these dudes are on a team with WAAAAAY more powerful people... The melee guy has too much traction.
If lago's argument is that that guy can be a pally, or a gish, or whatever, but not a warblade though they can all do the same stlye of things... its because he's reach a conclusion the very few people seem to share. Which is why theres such popularity with normal man, and why he's almost always the main. He's the one people identify most easily with.
Thankfully niether of you will be there when the bring back hank and the gang.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:17 pm

Unfortunately, one of the things that sucks about tvtropes (the biggest promoter of deconstructing stories) is that in the process of trying to appease their fake-Asperger's manchild fanboys is that there isn't enough examination and criticism in what tropes are on the whole bad for a story. This is especially true for tropes that pop up with regularity in stereotypically-beloved fanboy shows like Star Trek and Naruto.

For example, The Chick in the Five Man Band--despite being a classic trope for action-adventure ensemble casts with a decades-long history--is actually a bad trope. The history of sexism aside, it's a waste of screentime and drama that could be better used for something else. Maybe not objectively, but inductive reasoning leads us to strongly believe that this is the case.

The same goes for the DMF. The character archetype SUCKS. If Ichigo or Goku or Gon weren't the main characters of their series they'd be ignored by most of the fanbase. This indicates that there is a problem with the character archetype and if you're interested in wanting to write better stories you need to do something about it rather than accepting it as the inevitable.

Midnight_v wrote:Frankly, it has enough traction with enough people that you are never going to be able to get what you want in your lifetime. The people who own the d&d property will assuredly KNOW that and he'll show up as the main. He's almost always the main (except when its a she.) but non the less it there and it'll be there regardless of either of use (See: you) want.

You might as well declare this whole TGD board useless, because game designers continually make stupid mistakes in the interest of tradition and giving their fanbase what they want and will probably keep doing so. Does it make it a waste of time to point out that their design decisions are contradictory/creating unintended consequences/don't do what they want/unfair/just plain wrong? It may be, but just because you're in charge of a big project doesn't mean that you aren't a stupid hack. See: Avatar.

And action-adventure series have had a lot more inertia in their core conceits than tabletop games anyway.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:18 pm

If we're going to look at X-men through different goggles, though- Wolverine as he is portrayed these days is not a vanilla fighter- he's obviously gone into some wack epic dreadnought PRC, with stops in ranger and barbarian and samurai and whatnot along the way. Plus, I would think his 'immortal' tag means more storywise than his 'stabby' tag.

And you're definitely right about TVT, @Lago- it is well in need of a stern hand to come up with some sort of guide.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:27 pm

MV wrote: But look, there are other people on that same team who are doing the Dmf guy. Wolverine most notably. Yet wolvie is like the visa of superheroes. Everywhere you want to be.

Wolverine is only cool when he's the star of his series. When he's competing for attention against an ensemble or is not the main character he gets treated like a joke or a measuring stick for the Conflict Of The Week. 'If those things defeated Wolverine in a few seconds then what chance do we have?!' Granted, the Worf Effect doesn't exclusively happen to DMFs, but they're the most frequent victims of it for a reason.

If lago's argument is that that guy can be a pally, or a gish, or whatever, but not a warblade though they can all do the same stlye of things... its because he's reach a conclusion the very few people seem to share. Which is why theres such popularity with normal man, and why he's almost always the main. He's the one people identify most easily with.

1) This is actually wrong. Leads who started out as normal guys but then fall into adventure generally don't stay Vanilla Action Heroes; they tend to gain ridiculous superpowers and fly way above the head of the limits of regular humans. For every Batman, there's a Green Lantern and The Flash. For every Green Arrow, there's a Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk.

2) Even discounting above, the trend is not for leads to have to struggle and work hard to get where they are. Check out the Hard Work Hardly Works page on tvtropes. The vast majority of characters on that page are main characters. A frequent criticism of action-adventure leads is that they completely obliterate the 'train hard and you'll be something one day!' moral because they gain power way in excess of what their peers can get for a fraction of the effort. Characters like Batman are actually an aberration. Most action-adventure leads that started out as normals either have some form of The Gift or spent years training offscreen. This is actually intentional, because otherwise the plot would have to be put on hold while we waited for the lead to catch up.

So all that said, why actually have that pwecious widdle DMF in your crew? He doesn't add anything good to the story. The best argument you've made so far is that the audience expects it out of tradition. I say nuts to that. The audience likes good stories more than tradition; if the story is good enough then it becomes the new tradition anyway--this is why female characters in ensemble crews are rapidly catching up in power to the male ones in newer series despite the questionable tradition of the girl character being by far the weakest member. And the DMF is such a hindrance to a good story that you're guaranteed to get a better one if that worthless goatfelcher takes a hike and you replace him with something better.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:39 pm

@ Lagoparanoia: Sure lago, whatever. I'm adult enuogh to agree to disagree and move on.

@JigokuBosatsu: Did you check out that vid I posted? With the large kurkri? I did some research on them too by the way... lot of hardcore dudes use those in real life as a side piece. Nice blade. Needs more love.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:41 pm

No, I forgot to and it sort of got lost in the shuffle. I'll look at it at break. "Ayyo gurkhali!!!"

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:49 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Wolverine is only cool when he's the start of his series. When he's competing for attention against an ensemble or is not the main character he gets treated like a joke or a measuring stick for the Conflict Of The Week. 'If those things defeated Wolverine in a few seconds then what chance do we have?!'

Is this how he's handled nowadays? Because the reason Wolverine originally got his own series was because he was such a badass in a team book.

To be totally fair, though, it seems like the X-Men in general have undergone massive powerups since the early days of the "new" team. I mean, the original "New X-Men" lineup had three guys who were pretty much exclusively melee fighters in it (Colossus, Thunderbird, and Wolverine), plus one more guy who was basically an archer (Cyclops).

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:52 pm

FatR wrote:That DMF (Dumb Melee Fighter) is still a dominant trope does not mean, that it is a good trope. I fully agree with Lago, that the DMF is a blackhole of suck, even if he honestly has enough stength to compete with magical guys.

I'll throw out a couple of suggestions, even though I am not a fan of the DMF. In the first place, "dumb" does not always imply stupid. "Dumb" also could mean not being fully aware of everything. If you have a professional castle guard who has never adventured in a dungeon in his life and is ignorant to a lot of the dangers of a dungeon, you have the basic element for the DMF.

Second is the nature of the blance of the equality of stick, (because it is the lack of a stick that leads to suck) and ones stick is often only tangentally directed to ones basic attribute. This isn't as easy as it looks because magical sticks are obvious, and non magical ones aren't.

Of course, since this is a cartoon, everyone (all main characters) need to be "dumb" but in different ways. The wizard is highly intelligent but "dumb" in anything related to combat tactics. The thief never thinks about the long term implications of his actions. The trick is synegry, the others in the team make up for the lacking of any one specific individual.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
1) This is actually wrong. Leads who started out as normal guys but then fall into adventure generally don't stay Vanilla Action Heroes; they tend to gain ridiculous superpowers and fly way above the head of the limits of regular humans.

Quite true... Again, looking at manga/anime, of those fighting series I've read recently, not counting the usual shonen suspects... Beelzebub - the main guy gets demonic powers up the wazoo, despite being superstrong to begin with. Medaka's Box - both the main girl and the main guy get ridiculous hax, like the ability to copy powers permanently or perfectly read opponent's mind almost immediately after facing opponents with abilities other than "is really good at beating people up", again, despite being superstrong to begin with. Violinist of Hameln - the only DMF on the main cast gets completely overshadowed and is the only charater from the starting party who does not even get to participate in fighting the Big Bad (that's because everyone in the party but the healbot and the summoner can fight and other characters have more thematically stretchable sources of fighting power, besides also using magic, or flying and summoning squads of angels). And in the sequel of this series, the only DMF anywhere near the party so far is a joke character, and he is a DMF because he's a joke character. Toriko - the main guy is a DMF, he does not pick any permanent party (save for his non-fighting sidekick), and despite him being one of the most poweful pure-DMF examples I've ever seen, it's clear why - any of his three old friends and companions have far more interesting and flexible powers (even though the setting does not allow for powers that aren't purely physical in nature so far), and will push him to sidelines, if they ever team up permanently. Blue Dragon - normals do not matter, if you don't have a guardian monster, you're fodder.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:45 pm

Is this how he's handled nowadays?

No.
and hell no... he went through that for about 5 years, though, but thats somewhat because marvel actually milked him for his popularity. So when he appears in anyone elses book sometimes to include the x-men they'd pull a worf-effect then defeat who ever whooped him with thier own resident badass.
Though to be fair alot of those wolverine's were Wolverines from alternate universes, skrulls, etc.
CURRENTLY, wolverine is used in various ways in various books.

He's on 3 teams, avengers, x-force, xmen. and in his own title.
Mostly, he's shown as a badass that most heroes are scared of because he keeps getting possessed, mind controlled... whatever.
In the x-men right now there the issue revolves around cyclops reviewing his wolverine protocals after Demon-wolvie demolishes russian steel guy. Wolverine protocals: White queen locates him, magneto tears out his adamantine, cyclops optic blasts him, Namor tears his head off.
But really magneto was enough, course magneto can to that to the iron in anyones blood so ymmv.
In the New avengers book, its hard to tell because the most god-like guy is doc strange and there's a whole thing where wolverine is killin the skrull queen but norman osborn actually snipes something vital to actually get the kill: enter dark reign.
Thing is that all up to the writers how to use anycharacter.

I used the x-men as an example though for a reason. Familiarity, we all get that there's a power discrepancy on that team. Rogue > Colossus, but doesn't have a monthly title, and really thats because the guy with the sword/melee fighter or whatever. Regardless of how many times we put dumb in front of it is something people still want to see.
However, the problem is really, some people aren't needed at all once you get phoenix on the team. Or frankly proffessor X. So while there are strict limits on what the melee's can do, having unlimited magic dudes is really a part of the problem.
That shit doesn't work in a five man band at all, so D&D cartoon, right? It'd be 4.X really, so arguing that Wolverine and Thor have no buisness on the same team is ridiculous, cause in D&D currently:
"No one gets to play as Thor".

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:17 pm

Midnight_v, you're confusing the point as to why Wolverine caught on in the first place.

Wolverine didn't catch on because he was a DMF, but because he was a visceral and interesting alternative to his cast at the time. Wolverine smoked, was hairy and smelly, copped an attitude, didn't back down from any challenge, and resorted to violence as the first option. Hell, in Ultimate X-Men he tried to kill a teenager's boyfriend so he could stick his Wolverine-Penis in her Telepath-Vagina and no one in the fanbase batted an eyelash at this.

In other words, he almost perfectly embodies 'badass rebel who is cooler than the people he works with'. And while I admit that Wolverine's powerset allowed him to back up that impression (if he was, say, a telepath with normal athletic abilities he probably wouldn't have caught on as much) the fact that characters who embody the similar role of 'morally ambiguous badass along for the ride' such as The Punisher, Dante, Raistlin, Uchiha Sasuke, and Drizz't have had a similar trajectory and history of being popular.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:34 pm

Raistlin isn't a badass. He's an emo bitch with a massive sense of entitlement towards everyone and everything else in the world, who gets away with betraying everyone, selling his soul for power, and nearly causing world destruction by attempting to take the world over for no particular reason other than he could, because authors wank on him. Well, Sasuke isn't one too, although in his case feeling that the world fucked him over is actually justified, to an extent. Still, badasses do not sell themselves to pedophile evil sorcerers in exchange for dark powers and hope that the author will somehow let them escape the consequences.

It's actually rather disturbing that such petty and self-absorbed characters enjoy both escaping scott-free from whatever pit they dug themselves into and fan popularity. I guess "I'm misunderstood and wronged (therefore I get a narrative license to be a dick)!" vibe naturally reasonates with teenagers.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:36 pm

I think they're suckass characters, too, but the overall point is that the reason as to why they're popular is the same reason why Wolverine and Drizz't are popular. Meaning that it's not the power set, it's the role in the story and personality. Meaning that you can reliably create characters like Wolverine if you were so inclined without making them DMFs. Meaning that contrary to what Midnight_v said, you don't need DMFs even for this narrow purpose.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:34 am

You're implying that these dudes I mean all the ones you named are popular, and the fact that they're all dmf's is mere coincidence? Well the punisher is DRangedfighter. . .

I gotta stop this.

You know, the thing that zings me about you and the idea as you sell it is because you went on this whole rant at one point in this thread and it resulted in saying something to the effect of: Swordmage = Acceptable, Swordsage = unacceptable.
So the main could be a duskblade, that would not make lago cry, but a Warblade itches his ass. When in many ways functionally they're the same. Or rather they're fufulling the same roll... I suppose the duskblade get pushed one step closer to elf fap.... pause...
This is why I look at what you're saying and go: Bias. Which for lack of a better word makes me want to say you're being a hypocrite there. I could be wrong about what your issues are, with it, I'm willing to entertain that. However, it isn't about what you and I think it's about what has the most resonance with the audience. The same reason you want to make the team "pretty"... in the end there'll be Captain Milktoast and the gang no matter WHAT we say.
Not that you can't challenge the idea, I just think that idea will win.
Moreover, raistlin... Raistlin fufills the nerd~god fantasy. Weak frail physical form, brilliant mind, eventually you become god and get to push all those jocks face in the dirt. . . etc. The fact that he's doted on obsessively by authors, could just be that he's their Mary Sue. Not to mention he's got "The look". I'd like to call "The look" officially something like variant Elric (of Moorecock)... White haired dude etc... Drizzt,Griffith, raistlin, sepiroth...etc. So for some reason people fap to that guy and his psuedo clones.
I reiterate... the hero fantasy stems from the little boy who goes from innocent,to awkward, to angsty, to total badass, to godlike. . .
Now you can tell that tale without the guy with the sword, but its offensive on some level to pretend like the idea doesn't have a HUGE reasonance with all of us. The whole of the fantasy genre, in the mind of the uninitiated is something like beowulf, or mario even, kill the dragon, rescue the princess, rule the kingdom... etc.. via swording/stomping.
Thats it though, I'm done... you do have a problem with it though, I came up with a suggestion for 5 chars. We've talked 2,3? Pages about just one? Enjoy the rest of the thread.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:17 am

I don't even understand what you're arguing anymore. You're just throwing out incoherent insults and whining about how I'm picking on your idea. I mean seriously, hypocrite? Elf-lover? Captain Milktoast? What does that even mean?

I also like how you're ignoring everyone else in the thread who said that having a fighter or other vanilla sword-based character is a bad idea. Like if you shout me down everything's fine with the world. Why don't you reply to FatR or FrankTrollman for a bit if I'm upsetting you that much?

Midnight_v wrote:and the fact that they're all dmf's is mere coincidence?

Most of them aren't DMFs (Uchiha Sasuke uses lightning and fire and magic eyeball ninja magic, Dante has devil triggers and shit, Raistlin is a classic D&D wizard, Drizz't is a ranger) and one of them, the Punisher, is strictly in the 'Vanilla Action Hero' tier where no one has much in the way of superpowers anyway.

So no, it's not coincidence, it's just you being wrong.

Swordmage = Acceptable, Swordsage = unacceptable.

Uh, yeah? The classes have totally different concepts despite the fact that they only differ by one letter.

If the D&D cartoon was going to be a One Piece thing where you could actually do legitimate superpowered feats that don't strictly apply to combat (such as stabbing the sky so hard that you change the weather or slicing open a dimensional portal by unsheathing your weapon) then the swordsage would be okay. But the whining from the audience about the character being weeaboo and retarded and Not A true Scotmans and omg anime is ruining everything would be intense.

And in addition to the barriers the character would have to overcome just to be useful in combat without succumbing to the Sokka/Batman effect (that is, opponents get stealth nerfed in order to let these guys have a chance) the character would ALSO have to convince the audience that it's acceptable for a character to fly by spinning their sword over their head like a helicopter blade. And frankly, I don't see most people going for that. The best you can hope for with the sad, weak imaginations of the Western audience is making people okay with someone decapitating a dragon in one sword swing.

But rather than deal with all of that shit, why not just use a different power source?

Paladins and swordmages do everything that classic fighters and warblades due except that they're more useful than fighters and don't have to worry about turning off grognards because of their special effects.

So I have to ask you: why does it have to be a swordsage? A paladin can do everything a swordsage can do but also has a richer history in video games and tabletop RPGs, comes prepackaged with more plot hooks, and doesn't challenge the audience's WSoD as much for doing superpowered stunts to advance the plot. What is so special about a swordsage that you're willing to call me a hypocrite and a 'milktoast' over it?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:09 pm

Lago... this isn't personal between you and I. It's starting to look like that because of some misunderstandings, I think. So, while frankly I'm done with this thread overall I'd like to clear that up.
Okay first, I didn't call you "milktoast", I was discussing that you or rather "we" would be fighting an uphill battle to not have the DMF, aka "Captain Milquetoast" - Milquetoast = Inneffective, Impotent, but most of all bland... I'm sorry I though you knew what that word meantHere's a good example of what I'm talking about
http://montecook.livejournal.com/150303.html It really hard to NOT get that guy injected into any D&D property. Marketing and whatnot. The glaring fact that its not just Dmf but also White-hetero-male DMF... pretty much always, challenges WSOD on footing but thats an aside, but you want it to be a paladin and that probbably will satisfy some of that requirement.
Swordsage/Swordmage - I retract the comment. I honestly had forgotten that 4th edition had a class by that name till you pointed it out.
I'll instead point at warblade vs duskblade (which is really what I meant when I said swordmage anyway.) You yourself keep asking me why? I don't think the paladin is the best choice because the paladin is constantly the source of bickering, always has been. Further, its best to keep the "Holy crusasder" out of it because that has such socio- religious issues its guarantee to cause a whole different type of complaining ~ religious fringe groups etc. Also, you make the argument that no one but grognards wanna see that guy but if you give him powers its them who complain.
I say fuck those dudes, they're on the way out, and not longer control the direction of the game. Futher, is this a kids show? We're wouldn't be marketing to them anyway. Anyone who says "get your anime out of my D&D" is right off the list of people considered. Seriously, because the upcoming market teens etc grew up with anime. Yugio/pokemon ichigo ,and more.
So... basically its the same question, I"m starting to think You are the one who doesn't want anime in his D&D, but its not personal, please don't make it such.
The thing is I see a lot of your thread, and flat out disagree with most of your post concerning Dmf's, Wsod, and the place of the fighter.
I don't agree with the bulk of your points. I didn't talk to frank or any of the others in this thread because you are the one who came down offensively, with: "You need to get it through your think skulls that only *insult* and *insult* like that shit" or somethign to that effect, which of course is going to put someone who believes what they're saying on an automatic "Fuck you" footing. It was self-righteous sounding, but the thing is I basically have all the same information as you ... but still disagree with the whole wsod/fighter dichotomy.
edit: Tell you what, I'll do us both a favor, I'll stay out of this thread. Jings.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:17 am

I hate to open this can of worms, but Joss Whedon shows:
- Buffy was basically a DMF who felt a lot of feelings.
- Angel was basically a DMF who was angsty.
- perhaps more relevently, Jayne is purely DMF.
...and they're all quite popular, and effective at advancing the plot.

Is there something missing, or is this just a rabbit hole?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:36 am

fectin wrote:I hate to open this can of worms, but Joss Whedon shows:
- Buffy was basically a DMF who felt a lot of feelings.
- Angel was basically a DMF who was angsty.
- perhaps more relevently, Jayne is purely DMF.
...and they're all quite popular, and effective at advancing the plot.

Is there something missing, or is this just a rabbit hole?

They're compelling, and usually had obstacles they could just punch/shoot through. Jayne was exploited for his strength and willingness to commit violence, Buffy had Giles, and later Willow, to do research for her, and Xander to do social stuff for her (even if he was kind of bad at it, he was endearingly bad). Angel had his posse to solve problems that would not yield to swording.

The main character of a lot of properties might as well be a folding automoton that the party keeps in a box for when they need a wall punched through, except that they are interesting and compelling and have a personality to them.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:07 am

Prak_Anima wrote:
fectin wrote:I hate to open this can of worms, but Joss Whedon shows:
- Buffy was basically a DMF who felt a lot of feelings.
- Angel was basically a DMF who was angsty.
- perhaps more relevently, Jayne is purely DMF.
...and they're all quite popular, and effective at advancing the plot.

Is there something missing, or is this just a rabbit hole?
They're compelling, and usually had obstacles they could just punch/shoot through. Jayne was exploited for his strength and willingness to commit violence, Buffy had Giles, and later Willow, to do research for her, and Xander to do social stuff for her (even if he was kind of bad at it, he was endearingly bad). Angel had his posse to solve problems that would not yield to swording.

The main character of a lot of properties might as well be a folding automoton that the party keeps in a box for when they need a wall punched through, except that they are interesting and compelling and have a personality to them.

But that's pretty much the point for the first two; Buffy/Angel was the main event, and Giles/posse were only required specifically because the story went out of it's way to demand they be required. Willow is a weirder case, and maybe a better basis for comparison. As a researcher though she's the same as Giles.

Jayne was willingly exploited; he wasn't duped into anything. I'd argue that his capacity for violence is exactly the same as Inara's for social connections, or Wash's for piloting: a critical enabler for a lot of stories, and otherwise the moral equivalent of Knowledge: Architecture.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:19 am

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply Jayne was manipulated or anything, I was using exploit in a more neutral sense as a synonym for utilize/use. You're right.